Posts by Madame Quixote

12

When we quote from the bible to prove a point do we have any right?

by Qcmbr in

one thing you'll see me and many others do is the good old bible bash with scriptures flying around.

i cannot move away from the idea however, that when we cannot agree on the interpretation of scripture how can we possibly claim our understanding is superior to anothers?

yet upon such topics hangs the supposed destination of one's soul.

Madame Quixote

Yes!!!!! It's a free country! You can quote from anything or anyone; just be sure to give credit to the source, er, what source, when you're talking about the bible - it's from so many sources . . . YESS you have every right.

31

Why don't YOU believe anymore?

by Crumpet in

someone on another site was asking "what if they are right?

" which made me think about why i know that they are not and i wondered what was your epiphany or road to damascus moment or moments that just made you realise - hey i've been led up the garden path here!.

here was my response but i really think a list of reasons on one thread for easy reference for newbies would be good.

Madame Quixote

Oh, yeah, and the specifics regarding the JW experience from the age of 1 until I was 21 or so:

- the constant threat of abuse from JW adults for minor "infractions" like not sitting still through 2 and 3-hour meetings and assemblies

-the actual abuse, ranging from beatings with coat hangers, hands, hair brushes, sticks and vines, shoes belts and such; pinching, screaming and hours-long lectures from momster

-being told that I should just expect and endure "persecution" from school mates because it was a sign of my loyalty to Jehovah

- being isolated from "worldly" potential friends and play mates because of the supposed influence of Satan on them; and having no friends for most of my childhood because I wasn't good enough for the elder's kids who were my age and because they lived too far away and there were hardly any kids my age in the JW org in my area for the first 15 years of my life; my closest companion was my (abusive and mentally ill) mother (whose mental illness was never officially diagnosed until after I left home and which is still not properly treated due to JW inflexibility and influence on her)

-emotional blackmail and emotional incest both from relatives and members of the JW organization, at least daily

-being terrorized by fear of demon-possession from early childhood on

-being shunned as a teen and as an adult for my apparently mystifying rebelliousness against "Jehovah's loving arrangement"

-being labelled apostate for speaking against the JW policies and practices

Oh, yeah, and believe it or not, despite all the abuse, it was really f*cking BORING most of the time, especially sitting through agonizing hours of meetings and assemblies for years on end, just to hear the same mantras, over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over, like:

"Bad associations spoil useful habits.

We are Jehovah's chosen people.

No one will ever love you the way your "brothers and sisters in Jehovah's organization love you."

Those who fail to blah blah blah

I gotta' go to work.

10

Why do they do that?

by nonamegiven in

my "best friend" who will no longer talk to me because i'm df'd is serving temporary service ay brooklyn bethel.

he and his wife were to be there for a month or two a year or so ago.

when they were just a few days from the end of thier stay, they got a letter asking them if they could extend it for another month or so.

Madame Quixote

"But why would Bethel do that? Are they so disorganized that they don't know they need you for the next 4 months untill the day before? I don't think so. I think it's another way for them to get you into a submissive posture." Probably the same reason so many soldiers are having their tours of duty involuntarily extended in Iraq: there is a shortage of soldiers/new recruits willing to accept the lies of the current administration. And the American public is unwilling to accept an official draft, so extending duty simply sneaks in a different sort of draft. The JWs are clearly operating in the same way; they are losing committed Bethelites and not having much success recruiting new ones because of the perception that they are a bunch of liars and out of touch with the rest of humanity (or the electorate/R&F who are struggling financially).

31

Why don't YOU believe anymore?

by Crumpet in

someone on another site was asking "what if they are right?

" which made me think about why i know that they are not and i wondered what was your epiphany or road to damascus moment or moments that just made you realise - hey i've been led up the garden path here!.

here was my response but i really think a list of reasons on one thread for easy reference for newbies would be good.

Madame Quixote

At fifteen, it was emotion and intuition which guided my conclusions that the JWs were full of bunk. I was tired of being smothered by the JW religion, whether it was right or wrong and intuition told me a loving god would not kill all the other people in the world at Armageddon just because they disagreed with my family. Why would anyone do that to all my nice teachers who showed a personal interest in my and others' advancement; who would do that to the doctors and nurses and volunteers helping people, and what kind of loving god would destroy sweet, little old ladies taking in stray cats, and also destroy all the ignorant people, and the starving people and all the other politically oppressed people who could not get the jw religion; and who would heartlessly kill my non-jw aunts and uncles who also were all deeply loved by me; if I myselfcould not justify such horrendous destruction (being merely a simple, reflection of a so-called "loving" god), then how could the supposed penultimate loving creator do such a thing? If god really planned to do such things, he did not need or deserve my worship so I simply intuited that some people simply invented the jw religion the same way people invented the rest of world's religions, and I managed that assumption at the age of 15.

I guess I was luckier than others who just "can't go there" - into the world of true compassionate questioning and logical freethought. And that is unfortunate not only for them, but also for those who have to live and work with such mindlessness). I think being placed in a gifted and talented program in 7th through 10th grade helped, but I am not sure of it, because my brother and sister were also put into those and other advanced programs and they could not make the jump (out of the prison of Watchtower thinking. This would be a conundrum for me, except that I take into account the emotional damage the Watchtower Society has inflicted on all three of us and my understanding of group and individual psychology.)

Now, at 40-something, after years of isolation from the dreadful cultic teachings of jehovah's witlesses, and after significant immersion and exposure to common sense, natural and social science, logic, and philosophy, my feelings have been reinforced with the facts of a proper education in natural science about human beings and about the nature of the universe, the origins of which must most logically be bottom-up evolution, rather than top-down creation, and therefore, the origins of religion - fascinating as they may be - clearly have their roots in the brains of bi-pedal primates, likely of the hominid species - not in the will of some great higher power, whose own existence cannot be explained by religion nor by science, nor by pseudoscience ("intelligent design") in any credible way, and certainly not in any way that is as credible and scientifically illuminating as bottom-up evolutionary theory because no matter what theory one believes, any creator (intelligent design) has to have an origin, and its own origin would also have to be evolutionary, just like ours is - bottom up NOT top-down. There is nothing more scientific, logical, simple and elegant to explain our existence; and nothing more eloquently explains the supposed existence of god than to assume that he, just like Boeing 747s, are the product of highly evolved brains which took eons to develop.

26

Demons to the left of us, demons to the right........

by Gill in

watchtower march 15th 2007: page 27 the watchtower obsession with satan and demons seems to have no end.

it is little wonder that jehovah's witnesses are so superstitious when they take in things such as the latest offering from the fds:.

'ever since the wicked angels lost their original position, they have been the demon companions of satan and have served his evil interests.

Madame Quixote

Gawd! That makes me so sick. I was terrified of all those stupid demons as a kid. I wet the bed until I was at least 13; used to go to bed and hide under the covers and often laid awake worrying myself with the nonsense. What sickos to teach children about stupid, hateful, terrorizing crap and deny them Santa and the tooth fairy or Halloween. They're such idiots and asses!

And hilarious:

"My mom has been so "demon-focused" that she thinks the demons have infested her computer because I got emails thru yahoo from this place, and a couple other boards. Plus emails from a couple wicca sites. So when I checked my email on her computer, it became possessed.

She also blames them when a light bulb burns out, or anything goes wrong in her life.

What a way to live!!"

20

Is it brainwashing?

by jgnat in

i've had a bit of a semantic tousle with a member of this board on whether the coercive techniques used by the wtbts to obtain and retain members is "brainwashing".

i say "brainwashing" is not a good description of what goes on, i prefer "mind control", or coercive and deceptive techniques.

he argued to call it something less than "brainwashing" is to water down the destructive effects of the wts on it's members and former members.

Madame Quixote

AK-Jeff said:"I refuse to allow a nice soft petal word to conceal the agony that I felt and the years of my life that were stolen by that organization."

That's all there is to it for me, too. I said it recently, in a million words or less, and I'll say it again: I have no interest in making nice, pretty words that don't express the pain, sorrow, and rage of being born and raised in the land of Jehobo.

And "rape of mind" is also an appropriate term, Jeff, that describes well what being "born and raised" a Jehovah's Witness incurs for most children because the basic motto of the JW org is: "don't think, don't act, don't feel and don't be."

12

Breaking News Researchers say 'Hobbit' was separate Species. Creationist!!!

by skyking in

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2007/01/29/070129220701.161f20yf.html.

scientific evidence supports the theory that a 18,000-year old "hobbit" skeleton unearthed in indonesia was a new species closely related to homo sapiens.

.

Madame Quixote

I suspect that scientists do have a real stake, (along with the rest of us).

When creationists make pseudo-scientific claims that use real science to distort the facts of human evolutionary research and choose to quote real scientists out of context, (not unlike what the JWs do), to make claims that have already been de-bunked by real science, and the general public can't (or won't) see through it, it brings the credibility of legitimate, objective science into question. The opposite is what should be happening.

Ignoring and distorting objective science for the sake of religious emotionalism - (which is what intelligent design actually does) - can have dire consequences for our planet, and already is having such consequences. Whenever someone says, for instance, that the issue of global climate change is just a matter of "opinion" or "politics,' it is clear to me that they have not been reading real science, but rather junk science (like "intelligent design,") which is promoted for economic and political reasons to a public that is both confused and suffering from relative scientific illiteracy.

It is time for everyone to wake up and demand that religion of all sorts, including and not limited to so-called intelligent design, be kept separate and apart from science because intelligent design as a scientific theory is neither. It is a hoax promoted by a religious cabal of pseudo-scientists who earnestly believe they are right, but whose research and "theory" is profoundly shoddy, and whose expertise is limited by extreme bias.

An example of such bias may be noted in the admission by one of Intelligent Design's most brash supporters, Jonathan Wells of the Discovery Institute:

" . . .my studies, and my prayers convinced me that I should devote my life to destroying Darwinism, just as many of my fellow Unificationists" - (The Moonies, for goodness sake!) - "had already devoted their lives to destroying Marxism. When Father" (Father Moon) "chose me (along with about a dozen other seminary graduates) to enter a PhD program in 1978, I welcomed the opportunity to prepare myself for battle."

Is this the kind of biased, missionary approach to science we want in our country, especially in regard to one of the most scientific theories we have, which is accepted as fact - (the way germ theory is fact) - by most real scientists? I rather doubt it, whether or not one believes in God. A separation of science and religion needs to be part of a broad concensus in this country; otherwise we will continue not only to be the laughingstock of the world - (thanks to the Kansas Schools BOE fiasco and others) - but we will also be forced to continually lower our standards in all fields of objective, scientific research to fit political/religious agendas that can be deeply damaging to the credibility and integrity of American scientific research, and to the educational system which seeks to promote such objective learning .

Religion belongs in religion class, and the so-called theory of "intelligent design" also belongs there.

I believe that we all do have a stake in this issue, even if we don't recognize it yet.

36

The Mystery behind the Conventions and Assemblies

by The wanderer in

jw
friends

the mystery behind the conventions and assembliesin the organization, the idea behind the conventions was to unite gods people under one roof.. .

looking back and knowing it is not gods organization raises.

a few questions about the conventions and assemblies.. what was the real motivation behind the conventions?did the watchtower hold conventions to show the world god has a united people?.

Madame Quixote

To reinforce all the same old BS, especially the lies about how "big" the organization was growing and such sh*t.

It really seems like a lot of people at conventions, especially if you live in some backwater in North Carolina and attend a congregation of 60 or fewer members.

Attendance impresses on the minds of attendees how unalone we are and such. Conventions and large crowds tend to have an 'awing' effect on members.

I think that's why we got badgered into going to these god-forsaken, self-congratulatory brainwashing orgies; plus, some of us liked to go someplace away from home; it was a great excuse to take a vacation without incurring some sort of judgmentalism about being too worldly (and taking time away for vacations).

Disrespectfully,

MQ

39

Can you name ONE thing that the WTBTS said that came true?

by megsmomma in

jw
friends

garybuss said not one single thing they told him about in his younger years (since the 50's) came true.

it made me think....does anyone know of anything they said that was/is right?????

?

Madame Quixote

Why bother seeking a needle of truth in a haystack of lies?

3

Being exiled, being a goat, trusting your mind . . .

by Madame Quixote in

this is a nice intro to the writer's almanac.

if you're unfamiliar with it, it's a quick radio broadcast of poetry-readings and reflections by host garrison keillor about the lives of great writers and famous people.. today, among other quotes, keillor spoke of virgil suarez, who said:.

i wrote .

Madame Quixote

I like it a lot, too, Josie. When I have NPR tuned in, it comes on with my "late alarm" at 8:30. It's a pleasant, meditative way to start the day - a whole lot better than that horrible beeping alarm that sounds like a dump truck backing into my bed.

I wasn't in love with the goat poem, anewme; although I could see how the poet related the goat's behaviour to herself. I didn't exactly relate in her way, but I like the idea of "trusting one's mind," something growing up JW (and growing up with a mentally ill parent) often did not permit me to do. I am getting quite a bit better at the virtue of trusting my mind, though! Choosing to leave the borg makes it quite a bit easier.

The main point of Writer's Almanac (Monday) that stuck with me was the quote of Virgil Suarez about how 'living in exile is chaos'. I suppose that is true for many of us when we first leave the JWs - (or when they exile us with disfellowshipping) - because we're so isolated from the reality of goodness (and of how to find it), and we sometimes have trouble avoiding the reality of meanness. Once we get out on our own, living well or successfully can be elusive and involve a lot of hit-or-miss due to lack of family and friends for support and stability.

I don't mean to suggest that the choice to leave is a bad one, Anewme. I have no regrets in choosing to leave, despite all the hit or miss chaos and depression of my early years out of the borg. I also choose to stay away from it. I too am pleased with that choice.